you know there's a huge literature on the tricky geopolitical order of the middle east and. the making to be complete the role of the regional hegemon on the path of. welcome back you're watching r t and here's a look at the top stories russia urges the palestinian bid for statehood to be given for a time of the un that's as washington threatens to use its veto power against a unilateral move just a year after president obama promised palestinians a seat of the soundly. the u.s. is accused of encouraging the arab spring to achieve its own interest even though it sacrificed the position of its closest ally israel leaving it isolated. greece makes good progress and talks with dead inspectors as athens hopes to get another

aid package to stave off the fall but the i.m.f. warrants a global economy is in a perilous state with the u.s. and e.u. close to falling back into recession. up next people of l. and he's crossed our gas to explore the role turkey may play in the arab world following the revolutionary wave that swept the region is coming your way. can. start. to. blow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle turkey and the evolving geopolitical order in the middle east and arab world is ankara making a bid to play the role of the regional hegemon on the back of the arab spring and at the expense of western powers or is it merely following a foreign policy based on national interests. can.

start. to cross talk turkey's external ambitions i'm joined by john feffer in washington he is co-director of foreign policy in focus at the institute for policy studies also in washington we have joseph omic he is an adjunct professor at the american university school of international service and in london we crossed a racial xabi she is a journalist and author of not the enemy israel's jews from arab lands all right folks this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first i guess it's an understatement saying turkey is a country on the move here turkey has squandered no time thinking in some games and strategy with the arab world to a new level last week prime minister rachael type so what observers have thought the arab spring tour visiting tunisia egypt and libya and into all the member countries clout in the region facing political change addressing crowds of libyans in tripoli and extending offers of help or don't want to show that he was acutely

aware of the importance of his timing. the talk or see is ending totalitarian regimes and disappearing. experts say upswing in diplomacy reflects turkey's growing invitation to become a leading political force in the region itself assurance driven by years of having the unique ability to negotiate with all sides of conflicts in the middle east as well as conduct successful trade relations with its neighbors any government that engages like this has a selfish purpose a sense of mission that in syria is in turmoil and that since we are in this area we are much more qualified to intervene turkey has in mind the role of an important regional power and with the recent upheaval in the arab world that sense of mission has become aggrandized and arguably more aggressive on the same visit to tripoli earlier on the mainly condemned government's crackdown on dissent in syria up until recently turkey's ally and earlier in cairo he called to uphold the palestinian bid

for statehood rallying for the palestinians cause hasn't five become one of the pillars of burdwan soft power strategies and much to the detriment of ankara's relations with televisa throwing the ball in israel's court erdogan said some countries in the region cannot read the changes that are happening on top of which israel experts say that turkey is a player to reckon with if that's the case how enduring exactly will its influence in the emerging regional or proof would give its competitors a run for their money or overplayed its hand a big spends of its western partnerships back to you peter thank you very much ok rachel i know you first in london are we seeing a new paradigm we're seeing the washington riyadh tell of the axis being replaced by ankara and cairo and maybe other capitals in the arab world what i'm getting at are we seeing a major power change in the region. it's starting to look that way i mean turkey

has seemed to be able to read the changes in the middle east. brought about by the risings it's been able to read them very well and it's been able to read them in a manner that other nations other players in the region have not been able to do so precisely at the time when the western when israel can no longer rely on compliant repressive regimes in the middle east like egypt syria to basically underwrite israeli foreign policy in the region precisely at that time. steps on the stage the turkish prime minister. he goes on this middle east and tour where he is greeted like a rock star there are billboards massive billboards of him and his picture lining the arab streets. there are crowds cheering his welcome in cairo so he seems

to have understood the situation and played it very well. to you in washington i'd like to ask the same question in a slightly different way is our countries like turkey and egypt on the right side of history as opposed to the western powers that constantly keep stumbling over themselves in trying to understand the other people and it's been going on most of this year in the arab world. well first of all let me say that the capital of israel in jerusalem not all of it was all good as well i think that's a different topic for a different program but go ahead and all that but it was mentioned that it is between capitals and then it was nation tel aviv televisa nicely people are going to rosa let me think i'll let me come back to your question right. well if it's right or wrong side of history i will say i mean you know your story is being written now and later on we should analyze in retrospect what really has been easterly or what was just passing wince or whatever but look talking about democracy in the middle east is not something that should be have any problem with

israel on the contrary i mean as you know for many years israeli leaders and by the way also prime minister netanyahu made the point that there could be and then should be peace only when that is the real democracy in the arab world so in that sense there is no problem for us and i would very much welcome that look at a picture and just in all doubt of countries not just in the world of twitter already of the counter of this situation for example syria i would be much more optimistic about the possibility self an agreement between israel and syria which is democratic the other day and their futility of all the efforts that have taken place for so many years between us and they are genes i mean half is and then they shut us up so altogether i don't think that this is a question that can be already decided what is exactly the kind of history so it's really you have to appreciate that if they decide it's very interesting as the people on the ground seem to understand become trees in the world and leaders in the world that are on the right side of history if i go to john in washington what

do you think about that because you know we have on one hand you know actually turkey is a very interesting example i know it's been said in the past that it's a very good example of islamic democracy a country that has its own ambitions and will no longer be just a surrogate of the west it's been very clear and of course that the recent spat with israel me where i'm getting at is that turkey is really standing up in the region is listening and very. welcoming. stance or greater stance. absolutely and turkey is not just kind of responding to what's going on in the middle east it's inspiring what's going on in the middle east as you point out the a.k.p. party in turkey the ruling party in turkey has successfully kind of moved turkey away from what was a military dictatorship and has proved that you can have a majority islam country that embraces democracy and that stablish is a kind of model of a secular state and a religious society i think that is

a very potent example for the rest of the middle east and you know this is something that the people on the ground in the middle east understand it's something that i think increasingly even the neighbors of turkey understand and it's something even the united states is understanding and remember the united states is planning to work with turkey for a post assad syria according to the latest news from the washington post new york times so it's not like washington it's not like washington is opposed to in many cases washington is working hand in hand with to respond to what's going on in the region but if i could keep going on that with rachel it's the same time anchors was not going to follow washington's lead like it did during the cold war and for many years since the end of the cold war we've seen a dramatic change in turkey's political fortunes to you politically and there are almost all net positive. it's not going to follow america's lead no but i think turkey does have the capacity and it almost it's written into its geographical d.n.a.

to be able to straddle both sides you know it has one foot in europe and once with it nature it's able to face both sides and it has proven in the past that it's able to do that in the way that it's tried to broker situations in the middle east but certainly it has broken with the u.s. in stance with israel of late and having severed diplomatic ties with israel it really changed tack. after israel's girls assault of late two thousand and eight early two thousand and nine after which over a thousand palestinians were killed most of them turned out to be noncombatants. that was when. prime minister. took to the national stage publicly shamed the israeli president shimon peres at the world economic forum in davos where he said to him you know how to kill people before storming off stage that was cemented last year after

a girls are bound was stormed by israeli military commanders and nine turkish civilians were killed. since then despite you know greater terms and some u.s. pressure there has not been a situation brought about where israel has apologized for those deaths as a result of which turkey so that it's ties which is a huge loss for israel and i think i think it's really all right joseph i know you want to jump you go right ahead please do you know it well before i would take issue with the fact that rachel mentioned but i would be very by this fall and this is a very important point it could lead to understand a key peek into power into a president prefer not to rule and or to go out and tour the already dead. very gradual this policy of taking turkey away from a close relationship with the u.s. and also with israel and for example we all remember that they refused to support

american efforts in iraq i love getting into the merits of people as if they were right or not i'm just putting it in a real properly story context however one should remember that israeli government tried to well with with the turkish government and there are do on and i would remind us all the previous israeli prime minister was in or always or out of the one when there was a telephone conversation with president bashar assad of syria and the two parties were not that far away from moving along dramatically between israel and syria we spoke to mediation then of course they're warning glance i was a problem and i wouldn't like now to get into all these distorted descriptions of rachel about what happened there but the point really is the point really is that government as be a valid before feel used in a way that in retrospect one can say was kind of creating playground will call laying the groundwork for what is the cause of now let me get a chance let me go to john before the break before you john do you think the

israelis are gambling too much with their relationship with turkey by not being more flexible well clear is this is not just israel this is netanyahu this is and that's a i thought government good point joseph is right that israel and turkey had a very strong military relationship you can amik relationship but the netanyahu government has gone way off the right hand side of the political spectrum and it's been you know absolutely unconscionable for the germans to jump in here with a girl short break and after the actual physical computer or discussion on turkey's foreign policy stay with r.t. . if you. this was a city. of about one hundred ninety thousand people and we had eighty thousand

people working for general borders. or a job that depended on general motors. general motors is if it's not relations you it might be your neighbor or somebody you knew it was kind of a family run business you know myself i'm third generation my father was working there and you have a lot of two three and four generation families they were there first let's understand that it is this is a man doesn't work. then he should not. it is gone rewarding. and to work. i think for a long time this notion in america that bigger was better was simply an undisputed fact in the twenty first century smarter it's going to get better general motors simply became too large for their own good and so many brands that they couldn't

even keep up with they just basically became a dinosaur. which was able to turn situations. you can see. the full. welcome back to cross talk on q. and a true mind you were talking about turkey's changing foreign policy. and you can say. ok i'm not going back to

john in washington john one of the interesting things about turkey is pointed out here is that turkey can deal with hamas hezbollah the taliban well keeping ties with israel the lebanese and afghan governments how far can you go in all those directions without really being up the waters and really alienating all partners at one point on it's an amazing foreign policy that turkey has to date be able to deal with so many different kinds of partners. you're right i mean the a.k.p. came out with a foreign policy which are basically called zero problems with neighbors and this was in stark contrast with the almost kerrison like foreign policy of its predecessors and it's hard to repair relations with greece with armenia cyprus all across the region now that is remarkable from an economic point of view because of course trade relations have followed the diplomatic warm and it's definitely. accrued benefits to turkey on the diplomatic side but there are challenges i mean

it's very difficult for instance for turkey to have an agreement with the united states for anti-ballistic missile. base or a drone base which is specifically designed to go up against iran while it maintains a very strong relationship with tehran especially an economic relationship so there are definitely going to be stresses here but it's rachel said you know turkey believes that it has a foot on both sides it's it's trying to get into the e.u. but it has also said look we don't get into the e.u. we can handle that it's a nato member but it's gone up against the united states on a number of issues so it's trying to straddle both both camps and many camps at the same time it will definitely had some challenges but every country has challenges when it tries to balance those relations it's just that we can only expect a middle power like turkey to be able to do that we only expect that from a superpower and i think turkey has very grand ambitions as a middle power in that regard. i think it's very interesting if we can just kind of

push out the envelope right here at what point does cherokee have to kind of decide because we see we see nato countries invading arab lands killy muslims and at what point is the public opinion and i think that to really point out here is that turkey is a democracy it has its own challenges but the government there is popular it is legitimate and it has to listen to people and the bombing and killing of muslims is something that just doesn't go and go down with the electorate there. i'm not sure if turkey will have to decide or at what point it will have to make that decision but it does seem as though thus far it has been able to straddle both worlds i mean we've saw just a few days ago or so committed. anti missile technology being introduced into southern nato southern turkey that's. as a nato country as nato is second largest military country actually so we have seen

that even while it has changed the dynamics in the middle east while it's changed its relationship to israel while it has first been very critical of the nato intervention in libya it does take a very very different stance quite often but at the same time it does seem able to accommodate and honor its commitments to nato if i go to jersey when we recently had the prime minister the turkish prime minister in cairo news it was mentioned earlier the program he was greeted as a rock star if you see a new axis being developed in the in the in the region our we're outside western powers in israel is one of their surrogates in the region so you can start seeing something very very different here and that the united states and israel and other western powers are going to have to start compromising more instead of dictating terms in the region. well i hate to break up the idea picture that is being portrayed here about the success of turkish foreign policy.

they are almost on the verge of war with cyprus these days as they threaten cyprus and they threaten greece there are only a very very serious collision course rizzi round over the question of syria but coming back to the point about egypt you have to remember that while the plan original plan of the visit was to have a big speech by prime minister and one it appears where the egyptian government refused to allow him to do so because they didn't like him to inflame. people in egypt and in egypt was very enthusiastic but there are millions of police of people in cairo so i don't know whether we can say it's a majority of asian people or not definitely is popular among certain circles there not by the way among some of the muslim quarters or parties in egypt but look egypt and turkey cannot and will not fall on a strategic allies for too long of a crime for two simple reasons because throughout the modern history of the middle

east the arab countries have always rejected any attempt by an all out of power resurrect was iran of the shah which is she always or it will be now turkey which is sunni but not up to a gemini's out of politics i can see objections coming to this from countries like saudi arabia also by the way from egypt and other countries to look what may seem to gain to be the tide to be the wave upon which the turks are writing i may seem to be totally different thing a short period of time it depends on many variables among them also what will really happen in syria how it will be interpreted by the iranians and their allies in the middle east so look all this is very very complicated and one thing that we know about the middle east is that the politics of black and white don't work there anymore even the israeli current doesn't work anymore in the says it used to be in the past. so a little example you may remember get fuel weeks ago maybe six weeks and also the syrian regime of bashar assad try to get with attention from the plavix in syria

the world the border with israel. aroused opposition in syria itself where growth even on one occasion these larry fled was barely the streets there and by the way also with regard to egypt there are forces in egypt. and the secular nation so all together i would say look if there are two armies they greatly there is no question about it he's very popular he's doing well for his country but he may be made to try to build too much in short period of time and that could be leading to his downfall later on in terms of foreign policy ok john if i ask you one of the things go ahead rachel one of things i think is very interesting is that you know a lot of what joseph had to say is i don't think that you know we we've always had just black and white from a western point of view looking at the arab and muslim world is very black and white and i think we've been very much surprised over the last few months and i think that's an understatement one thing i think there is a lot of unity and not just sectarian differences is the end of neo colonialism in the region by the west now i think that's one commonality and the entire region can

embrace irrespective of your religious sect go ahead. i think i think israel misjudge is this the potential for turkey egypt alliance at its own peril and to attempt to be that dismissive about it and say oh they're not going to accept an arab or they're not going to accept a sunni or whatever division you'd choose to impose on the part of the matter is that turkey and egypt are already talking about regional alliance and it makes sense egypt is very keen to punch its regional weight as the largest arab country in the arab world. status that was constantly diminished and downplayed and compromised by the former president hosni mubarak. turkey has cannily understood this kind of regional change and is keen to jump aboard and i also think it's an extraordinary miscalculation to keep saying that the israeli

card is irrelevant clearly the palestinian cause is deeply significant across the middle east and until that becomes a focus for israel as well i think israel is running into very dangerous ground john what do you think about i mean the relevance here because you know let's be fair here ok i mean this is an important issue among arabs and muslims all around the world i think we all agree with that but barely gann which be proud to call can be used as a domestic political card at home for elections for popularity. make sure you be employment or high prices or you know you can say we can pull up the palestinian card i mean there is an element of that as well was unfair. but there certainly is and it has played to a certain extent in turkey itself but i think you know the a.k.p. the ruling party has been popular for id of other reasons namely anomic success as well as foreign policy victories i think you know it's important to recognize that

turkey is exerting a great deal of soft power in the region that will last long beyond the in the fortunes of everyone we're talking about economic investments we're talking about the schools i mean one visit that you didn't mention that the one made over the summer was to somalia and this is a place where no foreign leader was willing to go because it was so dangerous and he went there and it's been followed by turkish man a carrying aid and that opened the flood gates for other humanitarian aid to go in and this is boosted turkish profile in the horn of africa tremendously this kind of soft power that turkey is wielding is far more important in many ways and than the military power that it is unfortunately using and other other parts of the region whether we're talking northern iraq or threatened and cyprus for instance and just what do you think it's very interesting soft power here played mentioned and i think it's very very important it seems like turkey has done a really good job at mastering it is it how is israel going to have to react to

this because again we started out the program with democratization is israel feeling more comfortable in a region that is becoming more democratic because there are islamic elements that are involved in these processes in egypt also we have in turkey is this something that israel has to learn to adjust because it will for decades it just relied upon dictators and american help i mean doesn't have to be a lot more openness now needs to be a lot more finesse now instead of just relying on force. at least we'll go to spain we never like to take those who really like those those who make peace with us but as i think they will still democrats that's going to be sure that those who want to make peace with as we welcome them and the question is about democracy merely say maybe the. before i will repeat the plow obviously we are in support of democracy all over the middle east because we are a democratic nation we would like to see all other nations be in a crappy can as i said before for example syria i believe and that are by the way i was a member of the israeli delegation for peace talks with syria in the past i believe

that if we would have a democratic government in syria it will be much more conducive to peace between our two countries than the not so that's just one example but when you talk about democracy what do you mean really i mean if you take for example a country like the kingdom of jordan is it a democratic situation there where the palestinian majority of seven people saying please basically downtrodden or surprised by the answer my dynasty i'm not saying that it could change all i'm saying is when we talk about democracy in the middle east let's face the realities what really are we expected to see and what we mean by that it's not enough to use the word democracy but partly a kind of democracy in iraq. and i'm just really very minor we've run out of time thank you very much to my guest today in washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. she'll next time a member of our starbreeze. film .

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